#4:塩澤 文雄

#4:塩澤 文雄
The guest of September 2020 : Mr. Fumio Shiozawa

ゲスト :塩澤 文雄

ジャンル: アートディレクター、パーカッショニスト、画家

プロフィール:1955年生まれ、アートディレクター、パーカッショニスト、画家。多岐にわたる雑誌・書籍のアートディレクション経験のなか、1986年、岡本太郎氏にインタビューを行い、衝撃を受けたその後画業へと向かう。主な仕事に、ミュージシャンスティングのアマゾン熱帯雨林伐採反対キャンペーンのアートディレクションをはじめ、ジョンレノンやローリングストーンズの写真集デザインなどがある。画家パウル・クレーのプロダクトも手がけ、詩や言葉も担当する。

 


The Guest of August 2020: Ms. Yuki Inomata

Genre:Art director, Percussionist, Painter

Profile:Mr. Fumio Shiozawa was born in 1955. In 1986 through his experience as an art director and editor of various magazines and books, Fumio had the privilege of interviewing the premier avant-garde Japanese artist, Mr. Taro Okamoto. Because of that interview, Fumio became greatly inspired and impressed that it lead to his decision to devote his life to be a professional artistic painter.

His main work includes art direction for (world renowned British musician and actor) Stings Campaign for the Protection of the Amazon Rainforest. Also noteworthy, Fumio designed the artwork for the photography books of musicians John Lennon and The Rolling Stones.  Additionally, as an editor/author, Fumio managed and produced the translations for the published books of the prolific Paul Klee (painter & poet)

インタビュー音声

The singer of the theme song : Ms. Carmella Constancio (YouTube)
Interviewer : 柴田 かおる (Kaoru K. Shibata)

Q.塩澤先生は多彩な才能の持ち主のようですが、小さい頃から色々な事に興味があったんでしょうか。また、芸術やパーカッションに惹かれていったのはどういうきっかけだったのでしょうか。

小さい時からこう見えても病弱だったんですよ。それで、家が仏教的なものに熱心だったので、とにかく病気になるとお経を上げるっていう…そういう家庭に育てられて。ちょっとうざったいっていうか。だけどすごい日蓮さんのでっかい仏像があったりとかそういう家庭だったので、そういうところから。

で、まず病気がちだったっていうところで学校もあまり行かなかったし、たまに行くといじめられるし、そうするとやっぱり絵描いたり、釣りに行ったり…(笑)河原で粘土細工の仏像作って流したりしてたの。変なガキだったわけよ。

絵描くと空はもう灰色とか紫色とかで描いちゃうから、うちのおふくろが呼び出されて。でもうちのおふくろがえらいなと思ったのは、拒否したんだよねそういうことを言われるのを。ね?そういうこと言われると「ちょっとあんた、空は水色でしょう」みたいなこと言うけど、だって大体こんな色の空の日ないじゃない。日本の空って。グレーだったりする、ユトリロみたいなさ。俺は見たまま描いたんだって言っても、先生は青で描きなさいって言うわけよ。それが嫌で…。

だから美術の図画工作の成績だって悪かったですよ。もうつまんないんだもん。みんなと同じもの作ったりさぁ。そんなことやりたくないし、学校も行きたくないし、学校も行きたくないから段々病気になっちゃったりするわけ。自然に(笑)そうすると1学期間休んじゃったりするわけよ。そしたらもうその後出てったら授業なんてお客さんじゃないですか。ちんぷんかんぷんで数学なんか。だからもうしょうがねえなと思って、小学校の5年くらいから、もう自分の道を決めないといけないなっていう…。

おそらく僕の知能指数だと、良い大学なんて絶対に行けないし…みたいなのがあったから、そこでそういうお絵かきにどんどん転じていくとか、ギターやったりドラムやったり。まあそれは女にモテようと思ってた部分もあるんだけど。そういうところを全力で突っ走ってった感じ。

それで高校2年のときに『レオナルド・ダ・ヴィンチの生涯』を見て、「これしかないな俺の職業」と思って、高校2年くらいのときに進路を書くじゃないですか。例えば会社員になるとか、公務員になるとか、警察官になりたいとか…。俺は職業欄に「レオナルド・ダ・ヴィンチ」って書いたんだよ!そしたら先生にこんな職業はないんだ!って言われて(笑)そういうガキでした。

だから本当にもう、逃げ道っていうのかな。逃げ道が芸術しかなかったんですよ。

―でも共感する人はきっと多いと思いますよ。

うん。だから今のDVを受けている子供たちの施設に行ったりしてパーカッションをやったりするんだけど、1人でもそういう子を救えたらいいなと思って…。

 

Q.プロフィールの中で「アートディレクター」とありますが、これはどのようなことを主にされる職業なのでしょうか。

アーティストを束ねていく仕事ですよね。だから写真家はこの人がいいとか、デザイナーはこの人がいいとか…大工の棟梁みたいな。…指揮者!指揮者といえばかっこいいんだけど(笑)この写真だったらアラーキーがいいなとか、これだったら違う人がいいなとか、篠山紀信がいいなとかさ、そういうことを直感的に、クライアントから出てきた仕事に対して人を集めてひとつの形にして、ポスターなり、本なり書籍なりして、形を変えて出していくっていう感じですね。

 

Q.以前、岡本太郎さんのインタビューをされたということで、とても難しかったのではないかと推察しますがどのようなコンセプトで行われたんでしょうか。

すごい紳士で優しい人で…。

「スタジオボイス」っていう雑誌があったんですよ。そこで僕は所謂アートディレクターをやってたわけね。

1年半くらいの契約だったから、その間に自分の興味あるアーティストに会っちゃおうっていう、そういうチャンスだったからね。で、太郎さんにインタビューを試みたんです。「天才の読書術」っていうテーマで、どんな本を読んで天才になっていったかっていうそういうインタビュー。面白いでしょ?

彼はもうピカソとも会ってるし、バタイユとか昔の哲学者とかね。全部それを生で会ってるから…。僕なんかデザイナーで学校も行ってないしさ、そういう勉強をしてなかったんだけど、名前は聞いたことあるけどそういう人の本なんか読んだことないわけよ。「あ、こいつそういう教養がないな」ってわかるじゃない。俺も正直だから「知ったかぶりしたらちょっと格好悪いなあ」と思いながら、ちょっとメモ取らせてもらって僕も後で読んでみます、みたいな感じで。そしたら自分がパリ時代のことを話すことよりも「お前は一体何が好きなの?」みたいな話を振ってくれるわけ俺のレベルで!そこがいいな~って思ったわけ。教養だけひけらかしちゃってさ、知ったかぶりのおとっつぁんとかいっぱいいる世界だったから。こういう大人になりたいなぁと思って。

その読書術で教わった筆者のものを読み漁ったんだけど、そうやって岡本太郎さんはできてるんだなあと思って、そこからちょっと太郎さんと親しくなってパーティーに行ったりとか…敏子さん(岡本太郎氏の妻)と一緒に本出させてもらったりとか。岡本太郎さんが亡くなってから、記念館にするための助けをヘルプしてあげたりとか、そういうことをずっとやってきたんですよね。

インタビューのエピソードね、面白いよ~。

その頃はパーキンソン(病)が発病したばっかりで、まだ元気だったんだよね。で、彫刻作っててちょうど。彫刻ルームが外にあって、石膏だらけのまんま出てくるわけよ、黄色いポロシャツ着てさ。「このままで良い?」って言うから「いや太郎さん、撮影があるからビシッとした格好してもらった方が良いですね。シャワーとか浴びて」って言ってさ。そしたら敏子さんがシャワー浴びた方が良いわよって言って連れてって…。

ビシッとした格好ってどんな格好だって言うから、スーツとか三つ揃えとかが良いと思いますよ紳士的でって言ったら、玉虫色のビカビカのスーツ着てきて(笑)よだれかけみたいな自分のデザインしたネクタイして「これで良いか」って入ってくるわけ!「もうバッチリでございます!」みたいな感じで!

それで写真をね?カメラマンもいたんだけど、インタビューをしてるときに写真撮りながら…。今までこう話してたりリラックスした形でお願いしますって言って、あぁいいよって言うから写真家がカメラ向けると(手を広げてカメラ目線のポーズ)ってやるわけよ!(笑)だるまさんが転んだみたいな感じ!フッ!ってなるわけ!

太郎さんさっきみたいにリラックスした感じが撮れたらいいんですけどね、って言ったら「お前馬鹿じゃねえのか」って言うわけ。「これが俺のリラックスなんだ」って、そういう理論が始まったらもう可笑しくてさぁ…。いいなあ、こういう大人になりたいなって思って。そういうすっとぼけた感じで良いじゃない。面白いでしょ?

本当に瞬間の出会いで、完全に太郎ファンになったわけだよ。なんか生き方そのもの?あの時代にあんなへんてこりんなもの作って、平気で生きてられた人っていないじゃない?日本人でね。

日本人があっち見てこっち見て、あぁここが良いのかなちょうどみたいなところしか気にしてないから、太郎さんからそういう生き方みたいなものを…。

よく言ってたのは″無償無目的に生きろ″っていうね。要するに施しを受けないで、大層な目的も持つなってこと。それじゃあ飯食えないじゃないかって言ったら、そういう意味じゃないんだって。施しを受けずに自分のやりたいことを徹底して追及することが人生にとって1番大事なことなんだっていうことを教わったんだよね。

だからこういうプレゼンテーションをするのもね、思いついたものをバッと持って行って、ああ良いわね!って言ってくれる人と一緒にやった方が幸せじゃない。こんなんでどうでしょうか…ってご機嫌伺いみたいな、お背中流しましょうかみたいな営業やりたくないしさ。そういうので彼にはすごい良い影響をもらった感じがしますね。

あんな人間はいないね。人間じゃないかもしれないね、ある意味…(笑)

今コロナの中で段々文化っていうものがもっともっと衰退していくと思うんですよ。やっぱりこういうものを作って…。今ね、高さ20メートルの滝を描こうなんて話もしているんで…。そういう馬鹿げたことをいい(歳の)おっさんがやってるってことを正直言うと次の世代に見せたいの。

 

Q.現在取り組まれている作品について詳しくご説明いただけますか。

向かって右側が織田信長、左側が明智光秀なんですけど本能寺ホテルに織田信長像を納めたことがこれを描くきっかけだったんですね。京都で縁があったお寺なので、こういうものを作ったらどうかっていう話を持って行ったんだけど…。コロナでホテルが駄目になって今話が頓挫してるんだけど、思いついたものを描くっていう主義なのでやったんですけども。

『麒麟が来る』ね、NHKど真ん中みたいな(笑)向こうは赤い龍に乗った織田信長なんですけども、これは法華経っていう、本能寺は法華経の寺なんですね。法華経の守護神である青不動が信長、こっちの赤い方が愛染明王っていうね、2つの役割があって…。

織田信長の星は北極星。北極星っていうのは位置が変わらないじゃないですか。だから自分の目的に向かって真っすぐ行くための指針を表す神様。でこっちは北斗七星で、2つの関係をきちんと取り持つことで…(参照: 法華経の守護神である二人は平和な世の中というものを目指していた)まあ遺恨があって謀反を起こしたっていう話になってるけど、僕は解釈が違って、2人とも早く戦国時代を終わらせたかったっていうのが共通項であって、これ以上人が死んでいくということは日本が発展しないっていうことになるから…その方法論が違った。

結論はやっぱりあえて武力行使して、皆が戦うことをやめて、一致団結して日本を作っていこうなっていうのが2人の考え方だったと思うの。それを表現してるんだけど、花弁が散ってるんだけどあれ蓮の花弁なんですね。この上を回りながら、蓮の花弁が織田信長の後ろ辺りから龍の鱗に変わっていくんですね。そうやって2人の関係性を、相通ずる者として、法華経のシンボルである蓮の花っていうものが2人を取り持つように描いていて…。永遠の平和と人類の繁栄を願って、これを描きました。

―それがポイントで、大事にしているところ?

そうです。だから本当に残念な結果ではあるけども、あの世に行って理解し合って、この世にきちんとそういうものをもたらしてくれたらいいなと思って、描いてますね。

だから絵っていうのは自由じゃないですか。空間を飛び越えて、勝手なこっちの思い込みでなんでも描けるから。

Q.先生の今後の活動について教えてください。

例えば(作品をイベントなどで)公開できないとしたら、それこそZOOMでやって、NHKの日曜美術館のディレクターとか呼んで、絵について発信していくとかでもいいかなって思うの。そういうことを一般のSNSでもできるようになってるから…だからもう全部の仕事をそうしちゃおうかなとも思って。今Instagramも勉強させて…。

Q.先生にとってのアートとはどのようなことでしょうか。

「全て」だね。

そういうことで生きていかないと、イメージも降りてこないし。ただ単純にバラの花描いて富士山描いてみたいなさ、そういう絵描きじゃないから。

この龍の絵だって、上から(実際の土地を)見たときにこの絵が出てくるんだから。出てきてそれに近づいて描くだけで…、そういうものが来なくなっちゃったら、それが1番怖いんで。アートを人生の全てとして捉えていかないと、それがなくなったら描けないもんね。そういうつもりで生きていますね。

Q. Mr. Shiozawa, you have a lot of talent. Have you been interested in these various areas since you were a child? What was the reason you were attracted to art and percussion?

I was not as strong as a child. I was not well. I was raised in a family who was devoted to Buddhism. When I was sick, my parents changed the Buddhist Sutra. For me, it was a little frustrating.

But, there was a huge Nichiren-san Buddhist statue in my house. These circumstances had an effect on my interests. Well, I did not go to school because I got sick easily and sometimes I was bullied. So, I drew pictures, went fishing, and so on…(laughing). I made clay Buddhist statues in Kawara and let them float away. I was kind of an odd child. When I painted, I used the colors of gray and purple for the sky. The school teacher was upset at this and called my mother. It made me feel bad. But, my mother did not accept such criticism and prejudice towards me. She said to the teacher, “Which color is the real sky?” The sky is sometimes gray like that of French painter Maurice Utrillo. I insisted that I paint exactly as I saw the sky. But, the teacher forced me to paint the sky with blue color. I hated doing that!

That’s why the result of my art drawing skill was also bad. It was not interesting at all. It was boring. Why did I have to make the same thing exactly as other students? I did not want to do that! I did not want to go to school. So, I got sick. Naturally, I did not go to school the entire first semester. After that, I did not understand some subjects at all especially mathematics. From the 5th grade of elementary school, I sensed that I needed to decide my future. Perhaps my intelligence quotient was such that I could never go to a good university, so I became deeply involved in drawing paintings and playing guitar and drums. Of course, I did it for some other reasons too! I thought it was popular with girls and I could get their attention. I was desperately driven, with all my might, to do that all the time. Then, when I was in my second year of high school, I saw The Life of Leonard Da Vinci. I was so impressed and thought that art was my only occupation. You know at school, we were asked to fill in a questionnaire for our future plans at that time. The high school students seriously start to think what they would like to be for their professional job. Some wanted to be an employee of a company, a public servant, or a policeman, etc. For me, I wrote in Leonardo Da Vinci on the requested sheet. Then, the teacher mentioned to me that there was no such job as Leonardo Da Vinci. (Smiling). The teacher thought I was a brat and did not understand it. Therefore, there was no way of escape for me. There was art, which is the only way for me to live. The only escape was art!

– Mmm. But, I am sure there are many people who sympathize.

Yes, that is why I try to do something for the children suffering with Domestic Violence. I went to the facility to rescue such children and do music with percussion to help them.

 

Q. In your profile, you hold the title of Art Director. Would you explain more about this job?

It’s work that brings together artists. This job is to manage the artists to make something complete. I am like the Carpenter’s Master Conductor who selects the person as the photographer, the designer, etc. No, more like a composer, it is much better to hear (smile). For example, I select Nobuyoshi Araki for this type of photo, or for that type of photo I select Kishin Shinoyama – – like that. It comes out intuitively from the client. I follow my inspiration when I get the project from the client. It’s like getting people together for a job, making them into one form, and then making them into posters, books, magazines or changing them into different forms. I select the professional individual and make the complete project. It is like I make something with a different approach.

 

Q. We heard that you interviewed the prolific abstract, avant-garde artist TARO OKAMOTO before. (Okamoto also associated with Pablo Picasso) I imagine that it was not so easy. What kind of concept did you prepare for the interview?

He was really an amazing gentleman and so kind.

At that time, there was the magazine called “Studio Voice” and I had a contract as the art director in that magazine for about a year and a half. I had the chance to meet many artists I was interested in during that time. Then, I tried to get TARO OKAMOTO for the interview article. The theme was “The way of Genius reading”. An interview about what kind of book to read to become a genius with the theme of “genius reading technique”. The main topic is… What kind of book did you read and become a Genius? That is interesting, is it not?

He had already met Pablo Picasso, Georges Bataille and other old philosophers. You know, I was designer and I did not go to school, so I didn’t study like that. When I heard the name of Bataille, I had no idea. I believe that he had sensed it and also I was honest. I said, “Well I will take a note of it and read his book later.” Then he suddenly said, “No, it would be better to hear what you like instead of talking about my time in Paris.” To me, he was really a great man. Because there were so many men who would show off their knowledge, but might only know the surface?

Of course, he gave us the selection of books and I read every book he recommended. Then, I understood that he “himself” was made up through these types of books. Soon, my relationship with him became so close, that I sometimes joined his parties. I also had the opportunity to release a book with Toshiko, his wife. Since Taro Okamoto’s passing, I helped to build his memorial hall and continued the friendship with his family for a long time.

There was a very interesting episode during the interview. At that time, Taro Okamoto had Parkinson’s disease, but was still very active.

When I went to his home, he was working to make a sculpture in his atelier. He came in wearing a yellow polo shirt covered with a lot of gypsum and said, “Well, is it OK to have the interview like this?” I said, No…no. We need to take some photos of you. Toshiko (His Wife) recommended that Taro take a shower and brought him to the bathroom. Then, he asked me what kind of clothing he should wear. I said, “It would look better to wear a suit, like a three piece suit for a gentleman.” Then, he appeared in an iridescent color suit with a big necktie like a bib (smiling), which was designed by him. He came into the room saying, “Is this good?” We were very much astonished and said, “Of course, it is great!!!!”

And then, the photographer took the photos during the interview. We mentioned to Taro, to please relax to answer the questions.

But, he was always striking a pose (his unique pose with open arms – please refer to the photo like Mr. Shiozawa above) when the photographer put the camera toward him. It was like the children’s game similar to Red Light Green Light. We smiled and said to him, “Well, you can relax and it would be good to take a photo of your relaxing pose.” Then, he said, “No. No. This is my relaxing pose!” That was his unique philosophy and was very funny. I dreamed of being a man like him.

It was a momentary encounter. And at that moment, I became a Taro fan completely! Being Japanese, there was only Taro at that epoch to make a very strange eccentric life so rare a thing, into a life of feeling quite comfortable and normal. As you know, the Japanese people look around and try to adjust their actions with other people. But, Taro would not!

What he frequently said was, “Live Free of Charge”. In other words, live without any handouts and do not have a big purpose. We normally think, well, then we cannot live. Taro did not mean that. He meant – – the most important thing in life is to thoroughly pursue what you want to do without being given money. That is most important for all of us. If you get the money from other people, you do not have any freedom to make or do what you want.

Therefore, it would be good to find a person who has the same feeling for our work.

Sometimes, it is not always good to pay our respect to other people. I was so inspired by him in good way. That’s why I think he had a great influence. I have never met such a person. I think that there is no person like Taro. He may not be human in a sense. (Laughing)

Now under the circumstances of Covid-19, I think that culture gradually declines and breaks down. I would like to stop it with making something. A request was made for me to draw a waterfall 20 meters high. To be honest with you, I would just like to show the next generation of young people that a good old man is doing such a silly, funny and strange artistic thing.

 

Q. Could you explain in detail about the current project you are working on?

Yes, it is Nobunaga Oda (Japanese lord regarded as the first “Great Unifier” of Japan) at the right side and Mitsuhide Akechi (Japanese Samurai General) at the left side. The opportunity was brought to me like this. I completed the painting of Nobunaga Oda for the Hotel Honnoji(which is the very famous temple where Nobunaga was assassinated by Mitsuhide).

It was a temple I had a relationship with in Kyoto, so I brought that plan to the hotel, but the hotel was closed for a while due to Covid-19. That project was not settled yet. I completed this with the concept to draw what I imagined. It is the best timing because of the big television drama of NHK World Japan broadcasting“ KIRIN GA KURU” (Awaiting Kirin) which is now on the air. The story is based on these two people. Nobunaga riding on a Red Dragon. Nobunaga is Blue Fudo(Immovable). Then, the red one is (Aizen myoo-wisdom king ) Mitsuhide (Japanese Samurai General) – The men have two roles in my painting.

Nobunaga Oda’s star is the North Star. The position of the North Star does not change. Therefore, God represents the guideline for going straight toward my purpose. Mitsuhide is Septentrion (the Big Dipper). Their common purpose is to make world peace in Japan. In history, it was said that Mitsuhide recognized the difference, the way of approach for peace and as a result, he betrayed Nobunaga and killed him. . Well, there was regret and it was a story of rebellion. But, I have a different interpretation. Those two people have the same goal to terminate the era of provincial wars. Because they both know that the further death of people means that Japan will not develop. The methodology was different. They had different approaches to accomplish their goal. Eventually, they both thought that the power was necessary to force the people to stop the civil war and to make the country good. I think the conclusion was that the two decided to use force, stop fighting, and work together to create Japan. I drew it to express their intension with scattered petals of the lotus from the hand of Mitsuhide toward the dragon on which Nobunaga rides, whereby the lotus petals will change into squama (scales) of the dragon. I drew the flower petal, which is a symbol of Buddhism (Lotus Sutra) to connect those people; I really wanted to pray for the world peace and prosperity of humankind. In this way, the relationship between the two people is depicted as a common person, with the lotus flower, which is the symbol of the Hokke Sutra, holding the two. I painted this in hope of eternal peace and prosperity of humanity.

 

-Is that the very important point of this painting that you are cherishing?

Yes, I wish that they went to the heaven and understood each other, then brought us what they want. I put that thought into my painting.

The painting has lots of freedom. We can freely paint by our thoughts even passing through space and time.

 

Q: Please tell us about your future plans and activities.

Right now, it is very difficult to exhibit my works at any live event due to the Covid-19 circumstances. It would be good to have my ZOOM exhibition by calling the director of NHK’s Sunday Museum Program and send the message of my painting to the global audience. You can do that on general social media too! So…I’m wondering if I’ll show all of my work via the internet, social media, and Instagram, etc…?

 

Q. What does art mean to you?

Well, art is everything for me. If you do not live in this way, the image will not come down (receive it). Otherwise, the image will not fall into my head. I am not the one who just draws the rose flower or Mt. Fuji.

Here, the image for this drawing of the dragon came to me when I actually visited that place. This dragon painting comes out when I look at the actual land – – from above. Just come out and draw close to it. If that kind of thing doesn’t come, that’s the scariest thing. If you don’t take art as everything in your life, you won’t be able to draw it. You live with that intention. I am so afraid if those images will not come to me. Since I just draw the image which I got and refine the image to the painting.

Therefore, art means everything in my life.

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